“All I wanted to say was that the last time I checked, Ft Greene wasn’t a CHRISTIAN neighborhood the way parts of Crown Heights are JEWISH enclaves.”

Point being?

Comment by curious — July 25, 2008 @ 5:08 pm

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing? What do you mean that CH is a jewish enclave? You do realize that it hasn’t been one for very long either, right? That church like many in crown heights was probably built long before the Lubavitchs moved to crown heights. What difference does it make. The parishioner’s point still stands as correct.

Comment by wtf — July 25, 2008 @ 9:03 pm

20 year resident of Clinton Hill here. Attendance at Roman Catholic services is declining because people are fed up with the RCs hiring so many pedophile priests and then tryng to cover their tracks; when they lose in court, they start selling off church assets to pay the damage awards, so churches have less money for activities that used to keep parishioners coming through their doors. So of course the church, which begs for bucks every Sunday, is jealous of a successful business venture on its doorstep. This dispute is about money and parking, not faith. One audience member actually suggested that the Flea management PAY Queen of All Saints in exchange for the inconvenience it was creating, for its completely legal use of Bishop Loughlin’s track! So here we have a bankrupt institution that supports and conceals child molesters - demanding either “peace and quiet” or money from non-parishioners on Sundays? Give me a break. Anyone ever hear of the separation of church and state?

Besides, Howard Pitsch’s comment at the meeting was right on target: cathedrals in Europe are often situated on market squares, and they keep their doors open and welcome newcomers, who could be the lifeblood of a renewed congregation. Not in Fort Greene, apparently. Since when are FG’s Roman Catholics entitled to hog the parking, diss other faiths, and then try to shut down commercial ventures that employ local residents and occur OFF Church property at the same time as their services? And where did the priest running the (secular) meeting get off demanding a moment of silent prayer from the attendees at the end? He kept stressing that only “concerns” were supposed to be voiced by attendees,and tried to squelch supporters of the Flea. Sorry, Father, but you didn’t count on that many supporters showing up; it wasn’t smart to refuse to let Eric and Jonathan attend the first two meetings, though they heard of them through the grapevine and requested invitations so they could try to reach solutions before this meeting. And you didn’t bargain for the blogging community. Getting rid of the Flea won’t build your congregation or save your job. Wonder if Queen of All Saints will make nice-looking condos…

Comment by despina — July 26, 2008 @ 8:07 am

My point being that there are parts of CH, Williamsburg, Boro Park, etc that are predominantly Jewish. Like it or not. It would be silly for a business to start a Saturday venture in one of these areas because they would most likely be met with resistance and they definitely wouldn’t get much business from locals! Some reform synagogue in any other mixed neighborhood? Fine. Ft Greene is a religiously diverse area. I don’t know what the statistics are, but I’d say the parishioners at Queen of All Saints aren’t the voice of the entire neighborhood.

Despina, I was freaked out by the prayer as well. I almost got up to leave during it, but my Irish (non practicing) Catholic husband was too busy following orders. I didn’t make too much of a stink because the meeting was being run by a priest in a church basement, so we were on their turf.

Comment by RH — July 26, 2008 @ 8:53 am

Well, look at it this way - there’s no such thing as bad PR. The church’s lack of sophistication in assuming that reporters would stay out of the meeting when they saw those signs is backfiring in a big way…what a way to attract the attention of every bored writer in the area. How much you want to bet that Flea attendance quadruples tomorrow after the Times article? Maybe a few protesters waving placards decrying antisemitism on the part of QAS…and a group of parishioners demanding money and parking…a couple cops to keep the groups apart…and a couple more reporters to cover the fun! Go Flea!

Comment by despina — July 26, 2008 @ 9:08 am

One of my huge objections to the way so many Christians in this country practice their faith is their blithe disregard for other faiths, or their very active resentment of them. Even sadder is the way the church here, instead of taking advantage of the opportunity to let the community know more about them, and their faith,would rather hurt the community rather than help it. When parking is a more important issue than giving a young black designer a chance to grow his or her business at the flea, something is very wrong with that church and its parishioners.

I agree it would be an exercise in futility to start a flea in one of the Hasidic areas. for one thing, there would be resistance, for another, there doesn’t seem to be many schoolyards and open spaces to situate an outdoor event like this. I will say though, the Hasid community is much more serious about keeping the sabbath than the parishioners are- they walk to shul. come rain of shine. How faithful are parishioners who will not go to church if they can’t park, or are frightened off by bicycles?

Comment by bx2bklyn — July 26, 2008 @ 9:10 am

Second the motion: if the “noise” from the Flea is as big a distraction as parishioners claimed (and it’s not that noisy, truly it’s not - especially not when you’re inside those thick stone walls), then that congregation can’t be seriously focused on its religion. Also, when a gentleman got up and complained that he came from Manhattan to services on Sunday with his family and now couldn’t locate parking close to the church, well, public tranportation to this area is pretty good. Great way to save gas and teach your kids to minimize their carbon footprint. Nobody is entitled to parking anywhere - even if they ARE Roman Catholics and HAVE been going to QAS since 1942.

Comment by despina — July 26, 2008 @ 9:27 am

I find your contention that scheduling a Saturday event in a “predominantly Jewish enclave” somewhat offensive. It’s no different than the church objecting to the flea. And no less intolerant.

Last I looked there’s a separation of religion and state in this country, I guess that it does not apply to religion and public use.

Comment by curious — July 26, 2008 @ 10:11 am

Curious, I’m not sure we’re understanding each other here. Don’t get me wrong…I am anti ALL religion. I don’t hold a special place for just Catholics. Coming from a business standpoint, I know it would be a bad choice to open a Saturday business in a Jewish neighborhood. But who’d have thunk opening a Sunday business in a mixed neighborhood would be such a crazy idea?

But anyway, I still think the comments made at the meeting were verging on the anti Semitic. And I have good reason to get my hackles up.

Comment by RH — July 26, 2008 @ 1:24 pm

Nobody has yet picked up on the parishioners’ implications that Jews don’t like flea markets, and that this dislike is somehow humored by politicians. This misunderstanding must be addressed, and calls for a new organization: Jews for Fleas. In a spirit of tolerance and cross-cultural brother/sisterhood, our mission will be to convert insular Roman Catholics to the joys of shopping at flea markets.

Comment by despina — July 26, 2008 @ 7:36 pm

Mr. Demby, who sat beside him, added: “The flea market is about a response to the commercialization or the mallification of Brooklyn. We know as much about the fabric of the community as anyone.”

BS

Comment by Anonymous — July 26, 2008 @ 11:56 pm

The thing about is that the boys of Brownstoner are getting a taste of their own medicine and they can not stand it.
If the way he talks to certain vendors under his breath, is the way he talks to the church, it is no wonder they are upset. He is disrespectful person unfortunately.

Comment by Anonymous — July 26, 2008 @ 11:58 pm

Anonymous: that’s a big “If.” Thursday night was the FIRST of these meetings attended by Brownstoner management, despite its requests to attend the two earlier ones (Sister Eileen refused those requests). There was nothing disrespectful about what the “boys of Brownstoner” said at the Thursday night meeting. There as a lot of disrespect voiced by parishioners of QAS. Monsignor Vaccari tried his best to squelch any supporters of the Flea, and limit comments to complaints. He just wanted another bitch session for his parishioners, this one in front of all our elected representatives. But he hadn’t anticipated that so many supporters would show up (he expressed surprise in his greeting at the number of people in the audience), and naively assumed that reporters would stay away if he posted nice little signs requesting that they do so. Not.

Remember, the Roman Catholic Church is good at one-sided testimony and speedy execution; it invented the Spanish Inquisition. Unfortunately for Msgr. Vaccari, we’re in the twenty first century, not the fifteenth. So now he’s created a public relations disaster for the Diocese, with his parishioners looking like a bunch of intolerant anti-semites.

And as far as the synagogue issue goes, open air markets are all about location, location, location, relating to things like space and public transportation. There’s a public green grocer’s market on Saturdays right in front of the synagogue at Grand Army Plaza, and if the site of Queen of All Saints were occupied by a synagogue rather than a Roman Catholic Church, I suspect the Flea would still be in the Bishop Loughlin playground.

Comment by despina — July 27, 2008 @ 7:41 am

11:58, So you’re a vendor I take it?

Comment by Anonymous — July 27, 2008 @ 9:35 am

Despina, Jews for Fleas….I like it! I see t-shirt, totes, bumperstickers. We can sell them at the flea. Then branch out to Catholics for Fleas, Muslims for Fleas, Agnostics…. you get the picture.

9:35, I am a vendor. I’d like to know what this “talking under his breath” thing is too! Anon, did you mean Jon or Eric? Oh, do tell!

Comment by RH — July 27, 2008 @ 10:51 am

My thoughts exactly. Spreading the humble gospel of the Almighty Flea. We could offer the Catholics for Fleas bumperstickers free for a limited time only to anyone showing proof of membership in Queen of All Saints who comes through the gates of the Flea. That should help spread the spirit of brotherhood and understanding throughout their unhappy congregation. I know a T-shirt/tote/graphics vendor at the Flea who would probably be happy to do the honors. A portion of each purchase would go toward the cost of adding another bathroom at Queen of All Saints.

Comment by despina — July 27, 2008 @ 11:20 am

Screw QAS! The $ should go in our own damn pockets!

Comment by RH — July 27, 2008 @ 11:34 am

OK, OK, business sense rules. It was just a brotherly, spiritual thought emanating from a higher plane. As Ms. Walsh asked plaintively in her opening diatribe on commerce at their doorstep, “Are we selling our souls?” But hey, we’re flea market vendors - so the answer is, why not? So I suppose you’re right. If the Vatican can’t afford another bathroom, why should flea market vendors pick up the tab? We’ll probably need all the proceeds to subsidize spreading the multicultural Flea gospel in any case…

Comment by despina — July 27, 2008 @ 11:47 am

I’m glad you see it my way.

Comment by RH — July 27, 2008 @ 12:02 pm

It’s not about shutting down small business ventures. It’s about choice of venue. There are many venues in our community that lend themselves to such large and ambitious undertakings. Fairs are held annually in these venues. I’m sure that the venders would sell their wares just as well in those venues. But I suppose the coordinators of this affair found an institution that is in need and were probably given a cheaper rental rate than the other available venues. Is that the bottomline deciding factor for choosing the site for the market? I doubt very much that the coordinators were concerned about the good that they would be doing for the community. They are in business to make money! That is the bottomline. The fact that some in the community are reaping some benefits is an accidental by-product. Believe me, it was not included in the plans by the coordinators.

Comment by cr — July 27, 2008 @ 2:07 pm

“They are in business to make money!” Isn’t that why anyone goes into business? I’m sure there are many factors to consider in regards to location, such as transportation, foot traffic and proximity to other neighborhoods.

Comment by Anonymous — July 27, 2008 @ 5:55 pm

Please don’t paint the whole group with the same swath. It is true about the parking and the drop in attendance. The church is a very vibrant community and it is a beautiful Mass. I don’t know what happened there, but I am a brownstoner and a member of Queen of All Saints, which I love. It is much tougher for people on Sunday. That’s the issue. There are a couple of jerks in every group, but I can tell you that the community as a whole is beautiful.

Comment by Donatella — July 27, 2008 @ 10:17 pm

I was at the meeting, and was astonished when Monsignor Vaccari simply sat there and made no attempt to stop the anti-semitic remarks. He also made multiple attempts to limit any discussion to complaints rather than appreciation of the good things that the Flea has brought to the neighborhood, and tried his best to keep the press out of the meeting. Deeds are more important than words. Donatella, you may perceive QAS as offering a “beautiful Mass,” but as a lapsed Jew (and longtime resident of CH) I felt that I was listening to ignorance and bigotry from another age, unrestrained by the host of the meeting. I left, disgusted, when Msgr. Vaccari asked everyone to join in a silent prayer; for even if I had been moved to pray, I certainly wouldn’t do so in the company of people who denigrate (or condone the denigration of) members of other religions.

Comment by despina — July 27, 2008 @ 11:26 pm

I hear what you’re saying, Donatella, but the meeting was certainly weird! If this group (the church AND neighborhood anti-flea people) had any ground, I’d say they lost it on Thursday. This totally backfired for them and nobody is going to take them seriously now.

Meanwhile, I wasn’t at the flea yesterday because I cut back on my summer hours. Did I miss the best day ever?

Comment by RH — July 28, 2008 @ 7:19 am

I would like to chime in about your characterization of the neighborhood and people who lived here for a long time…Dekalb avenue was nothing?! I didn’t know the korean mini market(previously owned by white residents), Cellars, a bike shop, magazine store(bobs..still there under new ownership),sporting good store, alibi bar, two steps down, cinos italian restuarant, merkens diner,a hardware store, video rental, doctors office, pharmacy, beauty salon, elly’s, pizza shop, barber shop, butcher, Sheilas(red bamboo), chinese restaurant, real state office, liquor store, hat store, and clermont lounge ALL located on dekalb ave was NOTHING. I didn’t know if it’s not a sidewalk cafe or some other trendy business, it’s considered NOTHING. As far as speaking out against crime, people in the area have always been vocal and active against crime. From calling the police constantly, to marches, to grassroot programs for kids, anti-drug awareness programs, basketball tournaments etc…it was even the ppl in the area who made the mta add another stop to the B38 to a more visible illuminated area. It’s the people in the area that made it so there was always atleast one officer at the G-train clint-wash station during evening rush hours. So to answer your question, yes people did care. But please don’t act like this neighborhood was the wild west or epitome of the slums…This area was alot more then just shootings and crack deals…as were the people. I can name blocks for days that looked just as good and maintained then as they do now..I can also name plenty of buildings that werent grafitti filled piss holes. Reading some of these blogs you’d think that clinton hill/fort greene was like compton or cabrini greene in Chicago and that is not the truth. Most of fg’s notorious rep and “murder ave” was derived from the ingersol/walt whitman houses which because of their close proximity with each other is known ALL around the NYC as “Fort Greene projects”.

Comment by clintonhillchill — July 28, 2008 @ 7:43 pm

Thank you Clintonhillchill! These noobies seem to think that they have brought civilization to our community. It was always here! Aside from giving those who find it so easy to hate, a platform to vent your hatred, the bottom line about the flea market is that they sneacked it in on the community without any warning or concern. Maybe if they had shown some respect and presented a proposal to the residents, giving us a chance to have an input, most concerns could have been addressed and all the heartbreak might have been generally avoided. But, as usual, peoples’ lives count for little in today’s world. Again, I say that our community has many venues that have successfully housed events with the same magnitude as this flea without such extreme disruptions as those suffered by the residents surrounding the market. The coordinators must have gotten a really cheap offer that they could not refuse and to hell with every one else! By the way, the church that you are enjoying lambasting to death was the only institution that was brave enoug to offer a place for the residents to grieve their cause. Other institutions( ex. Cadman Church, Masonic Temple Senior Citizen Home) that are suffering just as much did not come forth. And as usual, people complained among themselves but did not help to provide a strong front to show that it’s not just about a church! It’s about US WHO LIVE HERE AND HAVE BEEN MADE TO FEEL THAT WE ARE INVISIBLE! I wish that my neighbors who are suffering in silence would come out and be true to themselves.

Comment by cr — July 28, 2008 @ 9:27 pm

Kind of ironic, cr, that you ask for input and claim to have been made to feel invisible…yet apparently the only institution that tried to get some input from its members (1) excluded the Flea management from the first two meetings; (2) tried to silence any comments supporting it at the third meeting that its management was finally permitted to attend; (3) attempted to ban the press from same, and (4) pretty much disregarded all suggestions for remedies. Issue: bikes locked to QAS’ scaffold. Solution: Flea has posted signs prohibiting same and Council Member James is getting new bike racks for Flea patrons. Issue: trucks double parking. Solution: Flea has hired a security company that allows only temporary parking for trucks unloading in the AM, then clears the street thereof. Issue: garbage left by Flea patrons. Solution: a cleanup crew now works during and after each market, and one attendee of the meeting noted that after the last few Sundays, he’d checked the track and surrounding sidewalks and didn’t see “so much as a gum wrapper.” Additional garbage cans will also be added on the street. And on and on. I suspect that if QAS owned that track and was made an offer by the Flea, it wouldn’t have turned it down, since the Monsignor was pretty clear that church attendance was dwindling and QAS isn’t in the best financial shape. But instead, the gripes about loss of QAS’ ability to monopolize Sunday parking in the area has turned into a fiasco. Those opposing the Flea who feel invisible in this discussion have nobody but themselves to blame; they’ve backed themselves into a corner by avoiding civil meetings and open discourse. And not all “residents surrounding the market” are suffering, as was clear in the meeting, when some begged to differ with the parishioners and stated that they live opposite the Flea and enjoy it every Sunday. I’m one of those, and I’ve been here for decades. “Get out of my sandbox,” coupled with a refusal to listen to reasonable compromises when they’re offered (or have already been implemented, as in this case), isn’t adult behavior and won’t be treated as such by elected representatives.

Comment by despina — July 28, 2008 @ 10:52 pm

CHC, Although I don’t think every restaurant should be a sidewalk cafe, I think there should be choices for everyone: both old timers and newcomers. I remember most of the places you mentioned. Don’t remember the Korean grocery. I went to one Lafayette and Fulton. My husband and I were trying to remember the name of that sucky Italian restaurant…ah yes, Cino’s! We found ourselves going to other neighborhoods to eat and do food/pet food shopping and then finally moved on. We moved to Park Slope, which, at the time, had everything we wanted. When Park Slope became too over-the-top-gentrified for us, we went to Bed Stuy. Now I find myself bitching about the restaurants again, but I’m older so community is more important than restaurants.

I don’t understand how I made the neighborhood sound like the “wild west or a complete slum”. Didn’t I mention that people kept up their homes? The fact is, I DID hear shootings at least once a week and we DID live down the street from a crack house. But in all fairness, that was happening in much of NYC at the time. A couple of people at the meeting (myself included) asked the parishioners if they would prefer Ft Greene the way it was. They just rolled their eyes and shrugged their shoulders, much the same way they did with any compromise that was mentioned.

So that’s what I was getting at when I mentioned crack houses and gun shots. I never felt unsafe or threatened back then, even though friends experienced incidents. But I did think the neighborhood could’ve used some work.

Comment by RH — July 29, 2008 @ 8:56 am

Well saying that it was NOTHING and what you’re saying now is two TOTALLY different things. If you came here twenty years ago then the businesses reflected and provided a service to the ppl who were here. Whether you liked them or not or whether they appealed to you doesn’t make them nothing…or the ppl who patronized them, which is how comments like this come off in a backhanded way.
This attitude regardless of intent only polarizes the divide even more. I’d also argue that the businesses were VERY diverse, did you not read the list?! Not to mention the propreitors of these businesses were of black, white, indian, asian and various other ethnicities.
Diversity is not contingent on meeting YOUR standards or YOUR needs for that matter. How diverse is Dekalb now?! How many families on the median income level of the area can afford to eat there…excluding the pizza shop, chinese joint or hero from the corner store? And please stop with the nonsense about do ppl want the crime back and blah, blah, blah…It’s a loaded question and I see no corelation between these people having and airing out their gripes about something going on in the community that affects them and wanting higher crime in NYC or FG/CH. This flea market hasn’t done anything to stop crime in the area!! The MAJORITY of ppl who have lived or continue to live in this hood have NEVER been caught up in any element of crime. From older to younger, they never mugged anyone, shot anyone, used or sell drugs or involved themselves in any criminal activity. They are hardworking upwardly mobile people. This is the MAJORITY of people over here, NOT the crime card of previous decades you all LOVE to pull out so often(without taking into account crime in nyc a whole at the time..which you did in your comments not your post). These people are the face of and embodiment of everything this hood’s about…they also more privy to being victims of crime so to suggest that they yearn for these days is downright disrespectful.It reminds me of the Faux news pundits who accuse ppl of being anti-America because they are anti-war. Please don’t try to defend the undefendable…your way of thinking as expressed is not communal.

Comment by clintonhillchill — July 29, 2008 @ 12:28 pm

“Please don’t try to defend the undefendable…your way of thinking as expressed is not communal.” Ok, I won’t. Which means this conversation is over. Because there’s obviously nothing I can say to NOT piss you off.

Comment by RH — July 29, 2008 @ 4:56 pm

I wasn’t at the meeting and it sounds like it could have been handled better.
I certainly hope that the issues become resolved. One solution might be for a slightly earlier Mass and a slightly later opening of the Flea. This way the Church would have the necessary parking and could close the church during the Flea hours. I did not attend the Flea Market meeting so don’t know what was said in this regard.

Comment by Donatella — August 1, 2008 @ 11:15 am

Donatella, that was brought up at the meeting. It was the one issue Jon and Eric weren’t willing to negotiate. One, because they are trying to run a business. Two, because the market already starts later than any other flea market around (10am) and three, it couldn’t go later during the autumn months when it gets dark early.

Saturdays were mentioned as well, but Bishop M. has some events going on that couldn’t be worked around.

The market now has a bike valet and as you may already know, the cleaning crew is awesome.

Comment by RH — August 1, 2008 @ 12:51 pm

[…] The Brooklyn Flea Dumbo pop up lives on, but the outdoor Ft. Greene market is bouncing back for it’s second season starting this Saturday. Yes, it was Sundays last year. No, supposedly, it has nothing to do with THE MAN. […]

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