Comments on: Brooklyn Flea Vs. The Church: Round 1

By: Reclaimed Home: Green Low Impact Housing Renovation of New York, Brooklyn, New Jersey

Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:25:43 +0000

[…] The Brooklyn Flea Dumbo pop up lives on, but the outdoor Ft. Greene market is bouncing back for it’s second season starting this Saturday. Yes, it was Sundays last year. No, supposedly, it has nothing to do with THE MAN. […]

By: RH

RH — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:51:12 +0000

Donatella, that was brought up at the meeting. It was the one issue Jon and Eric weren’t willing to negotiate. One, because they are trying to run a business. Two, because the market already starts later than any other flea market around (10am) and three, it couldn’t go later during the autumn months when it gets dark early.

Saturdays were mentioned as well, but Bishop M. has some events going on that couldn’t be worked around.

The market now has a bike valet and as you may already know, the cleaning crew is awesome.

By: Donatella

Donatella — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:15:47 +0000

I wasn’t at the meeting and it sounds like it could have been handled better.
I certainly hope that the issues become resolved. One solution might be for a slightly earlier Mass and a slightly later opening of the Flea. This way the Church would have the necessary parking and could close the church during the Flea hours. I did not attend the Flea Market meeting so don’t know what was said in this regard.

By: RH

RH — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:56:09 +0000

“Please don’t try to defend the undefendable…your way of thinking as expressed is not communal.” Ok, I won’t. Which means this conversation is over. Because there’s obviously nothing I can say to NOT piss you off.

By: clintonhillchill

clintonhillchill — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:28:56 +0000

Well saying that it was NOTHING and what you’re saying now is two TOTALLY different things. If you came here twenty years ago then the businesses reflected and provided a service to the ppl who were here. Whether you liked them or not or whether they appealed to you doesn’t make them nothing…or the ppl who patronized them, which is how comments like this come off in a backhanded way.
This attitude regardless of intent only polarizes the divide even more. I’d also argue that the businesses were VERY diverse, did you not read the list?! Not to mention the propreitors of these businesses were of black, white, indian, asian and various other ethnicities.
Diversity is not contingent on meeting YOUR standards or YOUR needs for that matter. How diverse is Dekalb now?! How many families on the median income level of the area can afford to eat there…excluding the pizza shop, chinese joint or hero from the corner store? And please stop with the nonsense about do ppl want the crime back and blah, blah, blah…It’s a loaded question and I see no corelation between these people having and airing out their gripes about something going on in the community that affects them and wanting higher crime in NYC or FG/CH. This flea market hasn’t done anything to stop crime in the area!! The MAJORITY of ppl who have lived or continue to live in this hood have NEVER been caught up in any element of crime. From older to younger, they never mugged anyone, shot anyone, used or sell drugs or involved themselves in any criminal activity. They are hardworking upwardly mobile people. This is the MAJORITY of people over here, NOT the crime card of previous decades you all LOVE to pull out so often(without taking into account crime in nyc a whole at the time..which you did in your comments not your post). These people are the face of and embodiment of everything this hood’s about…they also more privy to being victims of crime so to suggest that they yearn for these days is downright disrespectful.It reminds me of the Faux news pundits who accuse ppl of being anti-America because they are anti-war. Please don’t try to defend the undefendable…your way of thinking as expressed is not communal.

By: RH

RH — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:56:10 +0000

CHC, Although I don't think every restaurant should be a sidewalk cafe, I think there should be choices for everyone: both old timers and newcomers. I remember most of the places you mentioned. Don't remember the Korean grocery. I went to one Lafayette and Fulton. My husband and I were trying to remember the name of that sucky Italian restaurant...ah yes, Cino's! We found ourselves going to other neighborhoods to eat and do food/pet food shopping and then finally moved on. We moved to Park Slope, which, at the time, had everything we wanted. When Park Slope became too over-the-top-gentrified for us, we went to Bed Stuy. Now I find myself bitching about the restaurants again, but I'm older so community is more important than restaurants.

I don't understand how I made the neighborhood sound like the "wild west or a complete slum". Didn't I mention that people kept up their homes? The fact is, I DID hear shootings at least once a week and we DID live down the street from a crack house. But in all fairness, that was happening in much of NYC at the time. A couple of people at the meeting (myself included) asked the parishioners if they would prefer Ft Greene the way it was. They just rolled their eyes and shrugged their shoulders, much the same way they did with any compromise that was mentioned.

So that's what I was getting at when I mentioned crack houses and gun shots. I never felt unsafe or threatened back then, even though friends experienced incidents. But I did think the neighborhood could've used some work.

By: despina

despina — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:52:11 +0000

Kind of ironic, cr, that you ask for input and claim to have been made to feel invisible…yet apparently the only institution that tried to get some input from its members (1) excluded the Flea management from the first two meetings; (2) tried to silence any comments supporting it at the third meeting that its management was finally permitted to attend; (3) attempted to ban the press from same, and (4) pretty much disregarded all suggestions for remedies. Issue: bikes locked to QAS’ scaffold. Solution: Flea has posted signs prohibiting same and Council Member James is getting new bike racks for Flea patrons. Issue: trucks double parking. Solution: Flea has hired a security company that allows only temporary parking for trucks unloading in the AM, then clears the street thereof. Issue: garbage left by Flea patrons. Solution: a cleanup crew now works during and after each market, and one attendee of the meeting noted that after the last few Sundays, he’d checked the track and surrounding sidewalks and didn’t see “so much as a gum wrapper.” Additional garbage cans will also be added on the street. And on and on. I suspect that if QAS owned that track and was made an offer by the Flea, it wouldn’t have turned it down, since the Monsignor was pretty clear that church attendance was dwindling and QAS isn’t in the best financial shape. But instead, the gripes about loss of QAS’ ability to monopolize Sunday parking in the area has turned into a fiasco. Those opposing the Flea who feel invisible in this discussion have nobody but themselves to blame; they’ve backed themselves into a corner by avoiding civil meetings and open discourse. And not all “residents surrounding the market” are suffering, as was clear in the meeting, when some begged to differ with the parishioners and stated that they live opposite the Flea and enjoy it every Sunday. I’m one of those, and I’ve been here for decades. “Get out of my sandbox,” coupled with a refusal to listen to reasonable compromises when they’re offered (or have already been implemented, as in this case), isn’t adult behavior and won’t be treated as such by elected representatives.

By: cr

cr — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:27:28 +0000

Thank you Clintonhillchill! These noobies seem to think that they have brought civilization to our community. It was always here! Aside from giving those who find it so easy to hate, a platform to vent your hatred, the bottom line about the flea market is that they sneacked it in on the community without any warning or concern. Maybe if they had shown some respect and presented a proposal to the residents, giving us a chance to have an input, most concerns could have been addressed and all the heartbreak might have been generally avoided. But, as usual, peoples’ lives count for little in today’s world. Again, I say that our community has many venues that have successfully housed events with the same magnitude as this flea without such extreme disruptions as those suffered by the residents surrounding the market. The coordinators must have gotten a really cheap offer that they could not refuse and to hell with every one else! By the way, the church that you are enjoying lambasting to death was the only institution that was brave enoug to offer a place for the residents to grieve their cause. Other institutions( ex. Cadman Church, Masonic Temple Senior Citizen Home) that are suffering just as much did not come forth. And as usual, people complained among themselves but did not help to provide a strong front to show that it’s not just about a church! It’s about US WHO LIVE HERE AND HAVE BEEN MADE TO FEEL THAT WE ARE INVISIBLE! I wish that my neighbors who are suffering in silence would come out and be true to themselves.

By: clintonhillchill

clintonhillchill — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:43:24 +0000

I would like to chime in about your characterization of the neighborhood and people who lived here for a long time…Dekalb avenue was nothing?! I didn’t know the korean mini market(previously owned by white residents), Cellars, a bike shop, magazine store(bobs..still there under new ownership),sporting good store, alibi bar, two steps down, cinos italian restuarant, merkens diner,a hardware store, video rental, doctors office, pharmacy, beauty salon, elly’s, pizza shop, barber shop, butcher, Sheilas(red bamboo), chinese restaurant, real state office, liquor store, hat store, and clermont lounge ALL located on dekalb ave was NOTHING. I didn’t know if it’s not a sidewalk cafe or some other trendy business, it’s considered NOTHING. As far as speaking out against crime, people in the area have always been vocal and active against crime. From calling the police constantly, to marches, to grassroot programs for kids, anti-drug awareness programs, basketball tournaments etc…it was even the ppl in the area who made the mta add another stop to the B38 to a more visible illuminated area. It’s the people in the area that made it so there was always atleast one officer at the G-train clint-wash station during evening rush hours. So to answer your question, yes people did care. But please don’t act like this neighborhood was the wild west or epitome of the slums…This area was alot more then just shootings and crack deals…as were the people. I can name blocks for days that looked just as good and maintained then as they do now..I can also name plenty of buildings that werent grafitti filled piss holes. Reading some of these blogs you’d think that clinton hill/fort greene was like compton or cabrini greene in Chicago and that is not the truth. Most of fg’s notorious rep and “murder ave” was derived from the ingersol/walt whitman houses which because of their close proximity with each other is known ALL around the NYC as “Fort Greene projects”.

By: RH

RH — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:19:39 +0000

I hear what you’re saying, Donatella, but the meeting was certainly weird! If this group (the church AND neighborhood anti-flea people) had any ground, I’d say they lost it on Thursday. This totally backfired for them and nobody is going to take them seriously now.

Meanwhile, I wasn’t at the flea yesterday because I cut back on my summer hours. Did I miss the best day ever?

By: despina

despina — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 03:26:06 +0000

I was at the meeting, and was astonished when Monsignor Vaccari simply sat there and made no attempt to stop the anti-semitic remarks. He also made multiple attempts to limit any discussion to complaints rather than appreciation of the good things that the Flea has brought to the neighborhood, and tried his best to keep the press out of the meeting. Deeds are more important than words. Donatella, you may perceive QAS as offering a “beautiful Mass,” but as a lapsed Jew (and longtime resident of CH) I felt that I was listening to ignorance and bigotry from another age, unrestrained by the host of the meeting. I left, disgusted, when Msgr. Vaccari asked everyone to join in a silent prayer; for even if I had been moved to pray, I certainly wouldn’t do so in the company of people who denigrate (or condone the denigration of) members of other religions.

By: Donatella

Donatella — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 02:17:31 +0000

Please don’t paint the whole group with the same swath. It is true about the parking and the drop in attendance. The church is a very vibrant community and it is a beautiful Mass. I don’t know what happened there, but I am a brownstoner and a member of Queen of All Saints, which I love. It is much tougher for people on Sunday. That’s the issue. There are a couple of jerks in every group, but I can tell you that the community as a whole is beautiful.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 21:55:46 +0000

“They are in business to make money!” Isn’t that why anyone goes into business? I’m sure there are many factors to consider in regards to location, such as transportation, foot traffic and proximity to other neighborhoods.

By: cr

cr — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:07:09 +0000

It’s not about shutting down small business ventures. It’s about choice of venue. There are many venues in our community that lend themselves to such large and ambitious undertakings. Fairs are held annually in these venues. I’m sure that the venders would sell their wares just as well in those venues. But I suppose the coordinators of this affair found an institution that is in need and were probably given a cheaper rental rate than the other available venues. Is that the bottomline deciding factor for choosing the site for the market? I doubt very much that the coordinators were concerned about the good that they would be doing for the community. They are in business to make money! That is the bottomline. The fact that some in the community are reaping some benefits is an accidental by-product. Believe me, it was not included in the plans by the coordinators.

By: RH

RH — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:02:54 +0000

I’m glad you see it my way. 🙂